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« In a world without cars... | Main | Another Car-Free Idea from Mexico City »

August 01, 2007

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Mike

Dharm - So you are disagreeing with your original post about the need to build another crosstown route? If I suggest a different direction, you disagree; if I agree with you, you still disagree. Strange. I'm not sure that you actually read (as opposed to skimmed) what I posted.

Dharm Guruswamy

Mike:
There are two tracks between Rossyln and Foggy Bottom. One in each direction. With just one track service would grind to a hatl.

As for your suggestion on a new crosstown line, you should know better than others why no one talks about it. We don't have the money to maintain and operate (and perhaps expand the capacity on the current system) the Metrorail system we have. Why should we talk about expansion until we can. Also, extensions further into the suburbs will always be cheaper than tunneling through the city. So get used to more crowded trains. Part of the solution is congestion pricing on Metorrail but no one seems to want talk about that either.

Mike

Dharm, I do get the point. And I'm probably a winner (or at least not a loser) in this, since I use the orange rather than the blue line. But its not all about me. While this probably is the only feasible alternative they can do right now (as you said in your original post said), I do think its a shame for those blue line users bound for the Virginia leg of the Orange line and Rosslyn, Foggy Bottom, and Farragut West - there is obviously less service for those folks. I also agree with you that in the long run, they should build another crosstown metro line. I'm just suggesting a way that WMATA might start making some progress toward that extremely expensive goal.

And Washcycle, I did a some poking around and found some data on the web saying that you are correct, there is only one track between Rosslyn and Foggy Bottom. Fixing that ought to be a major priority, but nobody is talking about it - amazing!

Dharm

Mike misses the point. There will still be five trains an hour (one every twelve minutes) going through to Rossyln. Another five trains an hour will go to the Convention Center station via LenFant Plaza. For many people it will make their trip FASTER. In fact the rerouting will be faster for everyone except those bound for the Virginia leg of the Orange line and Rossyln, Foggy Bottom, and Farrugut West. I will be working near the Navy Yard soon and get on at Pentagon or Pentagon City. This realignment will increase the number of trains going via LenFant from 10 to 15 reducing my commute. Not everyone is a loser and that's my point you have to look at who is a winner and a loser in aggregate (not your commute)and then decide what to do. Remember, all those Silver Line riders don't have an alternative without the realignment, you will!

Mike

Commuter 182, I like your thinking about breaking off the short unique sections, and turning them into shorter lines of only a few stations (sort of like the old crosstown 42nd street shuttle line in Manhattan). In order for that to work, I think they would need to add some additional tracks and platforms at certain stations, so those "shuttle" trains would be able to enter stations without taking up space the other lines need.
Lost in my Virginia-centric thinking, I had actually forgotten about the Maryland end of the blue line. I have a possible improvement on your suggestion: Rather than having silver line terminate at stadium armory, why not just make it service what are now the blue line stations? So it would become the silver line to Largo TC, and the orange line to New Carrollton. The old blue line would be reduced to a Franconia - Rosslyn run. Or possibly a Franconia-King Street shuttle line and a Pentagon-Rosslyn shuttle line.
I do feel bad for blue line users riding from Franconia to Farragut or Foggy Bottom, who would have to change trains at Rosslyn, but as you suggest, having to change trains is less onerous than actually having service reduced.

Commuter182

Mike's idea of running the Blue Line from Franconia to Rosslyn suggests a strategy of reducing redundant lines along long segments and instead, divide the short, unique segments into their own separate lines. As in the above example, with the Blue Line limited to Franconia to Rosslyn in the west, the unique eastern segment of the Blue Line, from Largo to Stadium Armory can become another separate line, just need to pick another color, or call it "Blue East" or whatever. Riders along that segment heading inbound can transfer at Stadium Armory to Silver Line trains which will be terminating their run and turning back west through DC, so they will be empty and ready for new passengers. Otherwise, they can board inbound Orange Line trains coming from New Carrolton. This eliminates the need and the unmanageable condition of having 3 lines share the same tracks between Rosslyn and S.A. but still meets needs the commuters, with only the time penalty of a train transfer, generally not that significant during rush hour. And having fewer delays from waiting for the train in front of yours to clear the station platform saves time as well.

With Blue Line trains now essentially gone from the tracks it once shared with Orange, they may be able to run more Orange Line trains in different variations. For example, to help out those having to board packed trains at the Arlington stations, they can have a few trains running a "shortened" version of the Orange Line that starts from Ballston and heads inbound. This will be similar to the shortened Red Line running between Silver Spring and Grosvenor during rush hour.

Mike

We need a new crosstown metro route, with its own Potomac crossing. That is too expensive. But as an interim solution, a step in that direction, how about building a new blue line tunnel into, and platforms in, the Rosslyn station. Run the blue line from Franconia to Rosslyn, and terminate it there on its new platform. Blue line trains would not compete for space with the orange and silver line, which would have the Rosslyn-Foggy Bottom tunnel to themselves. Passengers wanting to continue into DC would transfer to the Orange/Silver line. This would be inconvenient for blue line riders, but not as bad as cutting the number of blue line trains to Rosslyn in half, as is proposed now. In the future, the new blue line tunnel could be continued up to Georgetown, then east across L or M street to Union Station and points east. It could be done in phases, rather than all at once, so we wouldn't need to spend a gajillion dollars right now. Start with a new Rosslyn platform, and work from there in the future.

Fair? What makes for fair?

Is it currently fair that all trains from Franconia have to go through Rosslyn? Wouldn't it be more 'fair' if 1/2 the trains went directly to L'Enfant Plaza, so Franconia folks wouldn't have to transfer to Yellow trains at King Street? The plan looks eminently fair to me. The number of trains leaving from Franconia isn't changed and riders will now have a choice of two destinations without transferring.

Dharm Guruswamy

Washcycle is wrong there are two tracks between Foggy Bottom and Rossyln (one in each direction).

Dharm Guruswamy

Brett is wrong on a couple of points. First, there are only three Orange line stations which won't be also served by the Silver Line (West Falls Church, Dunn Loring, and Vienna). Secondly, the slots for the Silver Line will be freed up not be eliminating the tripper trains which only operate from West Falls Church anyway and by a modest reduction in Orange line service not a big reduction. Finally, the Arlingtonians won't be affected becuase the Silver Line will serve EVERY station in Arlington served by the Orange line there will be no change in the number of trains. To put the Silver Line off until a new Potomac crossing is built is to basically kill it which may be good for Brett but bad for the region.

washcycle

mike, you're right. There is only one track from Rosslyn to Foggy Bottom. I agree that double tracking this portion should be Metro's #1 priority. What shocks me is that no public official is talking about this. The new NOVA transportation group doesn't even have it on their radar. Shocking.

Secretly, I'm hoping the FTA kills the silver line. I'm pro transit, but it's just such a mess right now.

Mike

Chris, I think Dharm is right, there is no alternative given the bottleneck at Rosslyn. (Somebody told me that there is only ONE Rosslyn - Foggy Bottom tunnel, so trains in both directions have to take turns - anyone know if that it true?) The only solution is a new cross-town metro route, with a new Potomac tunnel or bridges and that will cost billions. Why didn't WMATA point this out when planning for the Silver Line? Because that would make the Silver Line proposal much more expensive, and hence much less likely to get built! Its sort of a scam really. The new line is going to come at the expense of existing riders.

Brett

As an Orange Line commuter from North Arlington into DC, I agree that they should solve the Rosslyn bottleneck before creating a Silver Line. The Orange and Blue Lines are out of control as it is. We need another tunnel under the Potomac and through DC to allow those lines to be separated, doubling their capacity, so the orange line trains dont have to wait at courthouse for a blue line to go through and vice versa. Adding a third line that will use the same tunnel is ridiculous. In chatting with people about this, I amazed at how many riders don't understand this; they think the new Dulles line will be a completely separate line, with its own Potomac crossing. I suspect there would be a lot less public support for this line if people realized that it would make their own commute worse. The plan WMATA announced is particularly unfair to Blue Line riders. It is also unfair to people coming from the western end of the Orange Line, who wont have as many trains because of the addition of Silver Line trains. And its unfair to people at the closer-in Orange Line stops in Arlington, who are not going to be able to get on the trains because they will be so crowded.

Building a Dulles line that will draw even more people into the overcrowded system, without solving the bottleneck problem, is simply irresponsible. And its a fraud to claim that it will reduce driving and move more people into DC at rush hour. The existing tunnel is at capacity: you can't fit any more trains and people through it at rush hour. Its just a question of whether they are people who got on the train in the new Tysons, Reston, or Dulles stations, or people who got on at the existing stations. If the Silver Line makes things as bad as I think it will, so that the trains are even more packed when they get to Arlington, I plan to begin commuting by car - not exactly what the promoters of the new rail line had in mind.

Dharm Guruswamy

Chris:

The reality is that there is no other alternative. Given the dwell times at Farrugut West and the inherent flaws (from a capacity/dwell time perspective) of Metro's rolling stock there is no other choice. In the long term there is a need to build another cross town Metro route but that will cost billions!

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